(Sorry if it's too long ;P) With the kendama craze ever growing, we're seeing a growth of big and small brand/companies introducing new kendamas that incorporate shapes that are the result of numerous trial and error attempts, research, and love for the game. The Kaizen/Craft 2.0 and Slim shapes, Next Gen Homegrowns, Sweets Prime, Krom Slaydawg and Pops, etc. We've also seen a number of smaller and newer companies come in with shapes that deviate from the standard Ozora-esque shape. Kayadama (custom painter) around half a year ago came in with his own line that were featured on kens that were the same shape as Mugen Musou kens, then Kaizen 2.0 kens. Syzygy has recently previewed on FKC their newest damas that are in the Kaizen 1.0/OG shape and Make Waves quad split design. Rizen recently got flack for coming out with a line of damas that were in the Kaizen 2.0 shape as well as the KUSA 70/30 split colorways as well as a second with the Mugen Musou shape kens. Numerous kendama companies such as Pineapple and Northern Kendamas debuted with the Kaizen 1.0 shape as well, even using the same colorways and wood choices with those colors but also deviating by offering the all too similar shape in new wood options. Many people defend these choices by claiming that all these dama companies source their product from the same manufacturers, that these manufacturers do not limit the options to only one company, etc. With kendama evolving and a number of new companies being born so quickly, it stands to reason that the newest innovations in how kendamas are made would eventually be used by others as well. Personally, I think it's a step in the right direction. These innovations, bigger/wider cups, streamlined shape, arched rims, new paint, etc will eventually become standard in kendama the way it's going now. Yes, it's a shame that so much work and research done by the big named companies are being copied by smaller ones but should we really condemn them if they're making these new changes the standard of all kendamas in the future? TL;DR So many new innovations in kendama have been made this last year, should we really get upset if other companies use them as well and start making them the new status quo of kendama?
Would also like to add: More companies copying other popular shapes does not necessarily more or less business for either party. Most players will support their favorite companies whether or not other companies have near the exact same products for sale. And as long as these same companies are putting back into the kendama community, who are we to judge their choices in product?
I was banned from FKC for this debate. well not the debate itself but I spoke to people with power in a way they didn't appreciate much. Idgaf tho. Mac is the man. Rizen is dope no matter what haters wanna say, and obviously they just on the bandwagon because the dude wouldn't be selling out product.
I wasn't really for or against him when I saw the product posted on FKC and instagram (I did laugh to myself about it though). I can understand the being upset about the colorways and such but I definitely feel that the majority of the negativity about that whole deal was just Rizen hate. (Don't really care one way or another for them and many other brands). Color are just colors, may as well get mad at everyone who has ever had the rasta colorways on their kendamas, or any setups that are solid red, blue, green, or yellow. All the new shapes offer a number of advantages to play, why limit them to one brand (even if they're tweaked from brand to brand like the Prime vs Pop shapes)
Thats basically the arguement tbough. The problem being that there is competition with rizen, but there wouldnt be if say GT or DWI decided to use the shape or colorway as they are an off-branch of kusa and the founders are either kusa members or friends/followers. Same with a number of other brands we see as a single brand from a different company. The companies being made up of people that already have a hand in the industry. Thats only touching a small part of the subject though.
I made a company called mellow kendamas for 2 reasons. 1. I wanted some business experience. I’m a freshman in high school and want to one day start my own business like my dad did. He encouraged me to try it and I will say that I have learned a ton! 2. I am really passionate about kendamas and wanted to be able to design my own kendamas. It turns out that making a custom shape is about $1000 so I ended up just going with the manufacturers shape. Hopefully I sell enough to make a custom shape. I hope this kinda helps explain why I made s company. I never really expected to make profit from it but here I am, hopefully you can check us out we should have a batch of maple with rubber or silk paint coming late October or early November!
I think that it is ok when other companies incorporate different aspects of upcoming shapes. But, I don't really like it when the secretary nd company blatantly steals a shape. There is a thin line that is arguble from both sides. I really hope that all damas in the near future will have a double bevel. Too incredible not to pass up.
I followed the Rizen ruckus on FKC as well, and while I understand why there was such an uproar, some of the comments were uncalled for in my opinion. Hell, even Jake Wiens had to step in to PM Mac and talk about it. My two cents on the issue is that money talks. If you don't like this "copying scheme" that smaller companies are doing, voice your displeasure by not buying from them. If you stand on the other side of the fence and want to support these companies for their efforts, pick up a Dama or two and keep them in business. Businesses care first and foremost about their profit margins, and if their reputation is challenged, it'll show in the books. No need to rub the salt in the wound any further.
From another thread, Sweets Prime vs Slaydawg ___________ . . . Are there clones of kendama out there, sure. There are only a few manufacturers and they produce for the majority of brands. Check the links below for more detail on this topic: ARE THERE TOO MANY KENDAMA COMPANIES? IS KENDAMA PROFITABLE? THOUGHTS ON SMALLER COMPANIES On a historical note, remember that all current kendama designs are based on the Japanese originals. Some brands even comment that their kendama are based on (copies of) their "favorite" Japanese models. ___________
Hhmmm this is kinda of a trade off for me in my opinion. Even from the very beginning, there are brands having the same shape & just made slight adjustment just to be caled different. Now the game amped up with companies making bigger & slim damas yet.it's slaydawg's influnces that startedit all but prime really set the bar to today's shape like krom refigure their modela & make pop. So did sol with their upcoming line. It won't be surprising other brands go the same track. With small companies tries to exploit the chance to manniafest the old ones, it's still hard not to be conscious about it. I myself is not sure about it. One thing is for sure though; One day when kendamas reach every single toystore in the world, there will be a total defenitive shape that every companies will have & really call it their own & can't be easily copied or it will go to the suites... That's my though on the matter.
I'm recalling the whole Pill thing. A friend of mine told me when @htimSxelA first pubicly came out with the Pill he put in for a patent for it and got pretty upset when a number of other companies started selling their own Pills (correct me if I'm wrong, heard this story a few years ago now). I imagine it may/may not be the same now with all the kururin knock offs hitting the shelves at stores like Target now.
I have less of a problem with knockoffs (you cant patent the dimensions of a ball in cup toy) and more of a problem with the fact that smaller companies don't give back to the community. If its a small company in a place where it's tough to get product, then that's cool. But KUSA, Krom, Terra, Sweets, etc do a lot for kendama. Both in terms of prizes, events, supporting DS, etc. Some smaller companies like LunaTac sponsor events and the giveadama is well intentioned. If the company feels like it's just in it to make a quick couple bucks, I won't be buying from them.
I also see a lot of kururin rip-offs like a fidget stick, ninja sticks, fidget rollers, etc. Sometimes it pisses me off that these are growing bigger than the original kururin. One day, I brought my kururin to school, and everyone was asking to try my "Fidget Stick", not realizing that a fidget stick is a complete kuru ripoff.
There are often some misconceptions in this debate: people think "they all buy from the same manufacturer, so you can't get mad they use the same shape / colours / whatever". This is only a very basic understanding of how manufacturing in China works, it isn't like there is just 2-3 factories that make all this stuff. The reality is there are a TON of small factories, many of them family owned and operated. And of course, there are a couple of larger factories as well, which are the ones that smaller companies usually end up in contact with. Some companies (like KUSA) have worked hard and been very hands-on, taking many trips to China to work directly with the people making their product. Usually this involves working with many different suppliers, it isn't just a trip to the 'one-stop kendama factory'. Another way to run a company is to just email suppliers on your favourite ali-esque website, and then take your pick from the order form they send you. And of course, many companies fall somewhere in between. I think getting pissed because of a similar paint design is kinda silly, but some people like to stake their ground (like TJs iconic pro mod colours). Ken shapes are a little different, I think because they are more of an investment to create. In the case of the kaizen 2.0 stuff: KenUSA paid to rent out a CNC shop in N America for a week so that Wyatt, Dave and I could finish the design and prototype process in-person. You can imagine the cost of doing that, '$1000 for a custom shape from China' is quite cheap in comparison. I don't mean to flaunt or anything like that, I just want to add context to the idea that these companies have put in work to create these designs. In my opinion, a design like that is worth respecting, if I were running a brand and a factory shipped me some kaizen 2.0 kenshapes, I'd be bummed! If Terra Kendama launced a kaizen2.0 shaped ken, I promise you there would be a very serious conversation between myself and Jero not long afterwards. The brands you mentioned are not owned by KUSA, but you're right that they are related in some ways. This doesn't give any of them a free pass to launch copy-cat products though, and honestly I don't think a situation like that has ever really come up. I understand what you're saying insofar as an 'industry-insider' thing goes, but you're talking about the brands that have been working for 5-10 years to build this community and industry. Of course they have ties to eachother and are working together to push kendama! This certainly isn't an excuse to copy their products and then complain things aren't fair when people give you shit for it. Collaborative attitudes are one of the positive forces helping spread this game we all love. In this case, the Terra Pill was a novel design, so I worked with a lawfirm to apply for patents, which allowed me the time to set up a production, and not get ripped off by large toy businesses. I wouldn't necessarily say I was 'mad' when a couple small companies imported some Pills with their logo from China, but of course considering the investment that is a patent application, it is definitely my goal to protect the design! This is actually a great example of Chinese factories taking something they see demand for, and offering it to anyone willing to wire them some money. In most cases, the knock-off Terra Pills were actually made by factories we had never worked with before, but those factories were smart enough to see other factories in their area selling this new product, so they decided to produce them as well. Often, I would guess that the company in N America buying them wasn't even aware of the patent pending status, they just picked a product to order off an excel sheet that was emailed to them by the factory. The same goes for certain kendama designs. Remember when people were posting the Ali-express knock-off version of TJ's pro model? Same sort of thing. A factory owner sees their competitors producing a bunch of that design, and they want to get in on it. The decision to order this kendama from the factory is then on the company owner, simple as that.
The rizen thing is much different then normal. He made the exact line up of the most known kendama company in the world. As a company owner you should know better than to make exact copies. One kendama colorway is one thing, the full lineup is just deplorable and irresponsible.
Rizen made a line of kendamas with EXACTLY kusa's 2.0 colorways. Some people like @Dwesty may remember that
Love the everything is a remix mention @azleonhart . Definitely a Vimeo favorite series of mine The longer and longer Kendama is around the chances of 'copying' someone is pretty much unavoidable. I'm lucky I have people on my team like Marcus Todd who know more of the history and will be like 'oh yeah that's been done' when I have an idea. Funny story on this that happened recently. We've been developing a top-secret Dama for the past few months. The name our team liked the most was 'Eclipse'...but then a few weeks back Yumu released their own Eclipse (awesome design btw). Stuff like that just happens, sometimes it's just pure coincidence. I'm going to change the name to something else don't worry, it'll just have to release a little later than I hoped